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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 23, 2008 11:06:00 GMT -11
This story has disturbed me since the moment I read it. I think what bothers me most about it is that people watched this whole thing and it took 12 hours before anything got done about it, in spite of a few members of the bodybuilding board, right when it first started, talking about how they should call the police. Even more sickening to me is the apathetic attitude of the mods when it took some one all the way from India trying to make great efforts to call the police. When he first tried to get the mods to call the cops the mods gave him a hard time about it, saying the kid was a troll and even suggested the guy from India might be a troll. And what is wrong with society where anyone would want to even sit there and watch a 19 year old slowly founder in front of their eyes like that and do nothing but make smart aleck remarks? Something similar happened last year in England and it is repulsive to see the comments about the discoloration of the man's face after he hung himself on webcam mashable.com/2008/11/20/19-year-old-lifecaster-commits-suicide-on-justintv-smcb/
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MysticalKnight
Artemis
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Posts: 273
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Post by MysticalKnight on Nov 25, 2008 13:09:52 GMT -11
This is tragic in many regards ...
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CougarBob
Hermes
Where is Everybody???
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Post by CougarBob on Nov 25, 2008 13:32:36 GMT -11
It was shocking. I was especially touched by the fact that some people wanted it to happen and cheered the kid on to killing himself. I think that was what made his family the most upset. Then there was the group that watched and did nothing, though some of those may have thought the whole thing was fake. Finally there was the group that realized it was real and did nothing. I just can't understand the last group at all.
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 25, 2008 14:41:02 GMT -11
I really fully and thoroughly investigated this, as it had really bothered me, still does. (Even had nightmares about it) I guess I was looking for answers and trying to figure out why and how it is that a 19 year old can succeed in an overdose style suicide on a live feed while thousands watched on for nearly 12 hours.
So suffice to say I spent quite a bit of my time on Bodybuilders.com to really look into this matter and this young man. Here are the things that I discovered, much of which were not reported in the news...
1. I came across a thread where he had apparently done this a month or so before. In that incident, he did the same thing with the live feed, got banned from JustinTV, but the OD that time did not kill him. Instead, he woke up and wound up baker acted and institutionalized for a week or so.
2. I found out that thoughts of suicide were very common for him to talk about.
3. I came across a thread where on Nov. 6, he was talking about getting rid of all of his possessions.
4. On the early morning hours in question, he did one thread referring to himself tripping on Xanax. This was approx. 2:35 am. In it, he provided a webcam link so you could see him tripping on it, and he mentioned that thoughts of suicide were present but not to worry he isn't going to kill himself. There is then some exchanges between him and other members in that thread about the xanax he took.
5. Then suddenly, between 2:35 and 2:55 am he must have changed his mind about suicide, in spite of earlier saying that he wasn't going to kill himself so not to worry. He then made a totally different thread stating "Ask a guy who is going to OD (again) anything". In that thread he leaves the weblink again. Some joke with him, not believing what he said, and another simply asks "Why?" of which he responds with "Because I wanna die dur". A little further down, he posts a suicide note that he copied and pasted from elsewhere. Then some ask him what he's on and his very last post that he would ever make again in his life comes at 3:23 am where he gives a detailed itinerary of exactly what he took all together. This is when some self appointed pill expert comes in and claims that those are not enough to kill him, blah blah blah. Of course the fact that pills metabolize differently per person must have escaped the attention of this pill expert know it all.
6. At 3:30 am is actually when the first sound of alarm started, rather than the typical not until 11 pm thing the news keeps saying. A female by the name of baby_Matty was taking it seriously and mentioned that the police should be called. At that point, Abraham (also known as CandyJunkie on that board) was laying down and a user mentioned that he was trying to sleep. At 3:35 am another member said that they thought calling the police would be a good idea. Then the female asked if anyone knew where he was, of which the response was no idea. So apparently the idea of calling the cops was pretty immediate at least for a few, but stupidly enough, they decided against doing so.
7. After some time, users start writing in that thread how he's still laying there and hasn't gotten up yet. Around 11 people start getting very alarmed because of how still he is, and his rib cage isn't depressing so he doesn't look like he's breathing. At this point, a member notifies a Moderator by the name of Roxie about the situation and asked that she look up CandyJunkie's personal info and do something. Roxie responds back by saying "He's just a troll and he does this every month" I found the label of "Troll" very very odd for CandyJunkie considering the fact that he has over 2,000 posts there, and thus seems more like a regular member. So users continue to contact mods whom keep ignoring it and insisting that CJ is fine.
8. At around 1 Pm or so, some one from India spots the thread and live feed and is very very consider. He too gets the whole "Troll" speech by the mods and he himself gets accused of being a troll. Still he is not having it. So he googles around and finds CandyJunkie's personal info, including phone number. He posts the phone number of which some butthole calls Abraham's number just to say "Do it faggot". Then he tries to email the Miami police of whos email wasn't working. Still not willing to give up, he borrows his father's cell phone and calls 911 all the way from India. They don't take him seriously and he gets the run around and goes through three different police departments. Meanwhile he had posted the correct police department's number on the thread. While he's on the phone with the cops, others are also calling the cops about this. So now the cops are en route to the house.
9. Finally the cops arrive and have to break down the bedroom door. They come in with their guns drawn and everyone watching the live feed sees this. They slowly approach Abraham and one leans to check him, and then the webcam is covered over with something. This is when many nasty members start panicking and deleting or editing their posts off the bodybuilding forum, but the India guy was smart enough to save the originals. Also, many still doubted it was real or that he was dead. Eventually a friend of his posted at Bodybuilding to inform them that he was, in fact, dead.
From the way I see it, right from the point at 3:30 am when the first mention of calling the cops, is when it should have been done. And for the mods to be as dismissive as they were to member concerns is utterly inexcusable. While it is true that at that point in time, he was gone, there is no excuse for crappy choice of words they used, or their lack of action even IF they thought there was no real concern. And shame on the rest who sat there, slowly watching a young 19 year old man die, and did nothing all because they thought it was a joke. Like what harm would have been bestowed upon them if they had called right away? If he was joking, then he would have been caught by the cops joking and in trouble. If not then they could have saved his. Either way it wouldn't have hurt them.
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CougarBob
Hermes
Where is Everybody???
Posts: 997
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Post by CougarBob on Nov 25, 2008 16:48:33 GMT -11
Those are pretty much the same news reports I read. The girl who first became alarmed, then let herself be stopped probably feels the worse. '
And, hooray for the member in India. That took some smarts and some guts to keep at it all the way from there to get the local cops off their butts and into action. If he hadn't posted the police phone number, they wouldn't have been inundated with phone calls and finally forced to act.
I wonder how many times this has happened when there was no camera. Just posting, and what the outcome was ...
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 25, 2008 17:53:19 GMT -11
Those are pretty much the same news reports I read. The girl who first became alarmed, then let herself be stopped probably feels the worse. ' A portion of what I got came from the actual board though, for instance, the fact that he had started a totally different post claiming not going to kill himself, I haven't found in any of the news reports. Also, the news does not talk about him making a thread on the 6th about giving away items and other tidbits. It may provide the main tenants but not all of the puzzle pieces. I bet the girl and the guy at around 3:30 am that morning feel pretty terrible. One of the things that some of the news reports does that aggravates me a bit is giving the credit to moderators on that board. If anything the moderators did nothing but try to discourage anyone else from doing anything. They were not the ones that took the necessary action. [/size][/font][/quote]I know it. He's the one poster from there that has every bit of my respect. I only wish, as I am sure he does, that he was around at 3:30 am that morning. There was actually a case in England last year of a man hanging himself in front of all the people, while on Webcam, after many of them goading him to do it.
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Post by ♥~KarinaKay~♥ on Nov 25, 2008 23:46:47 GMT -11
The man from India is a hero - too bad the outcome was so tragic :-(
The guy being a "troll" is irrelevant, of course. Threats such as this should always be taken seriously. Heck, even if he had been faking, calling the police would perhaps remind him to not joke about something so serious as suicide. I would have made the phone call in a heart beat, regardless of what I thought his true intentions were.
Thanks for the information on such a sad, sad story. Please keep us updated if you hear any more.
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CougarBob
Hermes
Where is Everybody???
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Post by CougarBob on Nov 26, 2008 4:06:03 GMT -11
I was thinking how frustrating it would have been to even be able to locate where he was. My understanding is that he was not at his own home, but was at the home of his father's. Without assistance from the mods, how did they even know what city or state he was in? What tenacity by that guy in India!!! Just absolutely amazing!
I hope we somehow learn the name or handle of the guy in India so we can all post thank you notes to him. He deserves to be recognized as an example to all those who refused to act.
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nowhammies
Artemis
Big bucks, No Whammies, STOP!
Posts: 392
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Post by nowhammies on Nov 26, 2008 6:42:24 GMT -11
This boy was crying out for help. Everything in his actions shows that he didn't want to die - he wanted someone to stop him. Nobody did.
There is a mob mentality here - everyone ganging up against one kid because he was a "troll." Their inaction is a form of ganging up. Would they have treated him the same way face to face if he was showing suicidal ideation?
Has the Internet so disconnected us from one another that when we see things like this boy wrote posted in a forum, we fail to react with concern and compassion? They aren't just words on a screen. There are real human beings hiding behind the wors, looking for someone to reach out and help them.
Makes you realize that those people displaying trollish may be just looking for help. Or attention.
I worked on a crisis hotline for years. Rule number one is that you always take every suicidal ideation seriously and act upon it. No matter how annoying the person is, they are still human beings.
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 26, 2008 13:35:10 GMT -11
Exactly! As I said there would have been no harm done to the person calling the police and if he was hoaxing he would have had to learn a big lesson. I find it disgusting that the mods used the "troll" excuse in order to discourage member's from seeking assistance. From what I could see, this kid was anything but a troll anyways. He had been there for two years, had over 2,000 posts and was pretty well known by the other members. He was in his own bed. Luckily, because Abraham had spent a lot of time on that board as Candy Junkie, that he left enough info about himself through out the past two years that made it a little easier to figure out where he was and all that. He had even in the past left his cell phone number when he was off to do something, of which a member had called before to wish him good luck. Bulker. Sadly, by the time he was even able to find out and take action, Abraham had not been breathing for over an hour or two. That's what I suspect too. He was diagnosed with Bipolar depression and prone to not thinking rationally, but he likely wanted to see who cared about him on that board. Amen and very well put. What really ticks me off too is half of these creatures denying that it was no fault of their own. They like to point out how he did it to himself. Well first of all, he had a medical mental illness and therefore would not be expected to be a full throttled rational thinker, yet THEY, who did not have mental illnesses were sitting there watching him slowly die, so what is their excuse? And as far as I am concerned they got involved and made it their business and duty to act on it, the minute they turned on his web feed to look. And if they can't even feel some sense of moral fault in their hand in it, then it really goes to show how sick people truly can be without even having a diagnosed mental illness. I know if I was one of the watchers I would be beyond ashamed of myself.
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 26, 2008 14:33:52 GMT -11
Here is Bulker's accounts on what had happened when he got around to getting onto Misc and discovering the grim thread. He is a 17 year old, who proved to be much wiser than all of the adults combined that were there that day... The night CJ left us… November 21, 2008 Here’s a summary of what happened that night: It was late night for me, I had worked a late shift and was really tired, I was planning to get on the Misc., fool around a bit, spread some reps, bore myself and going to bed, I found CJ’s thread, and I saw his webcam, the thread was on the 3rd page then, people were starting to panic a bit and as soon as I saw his cam I knew it was not a loop and the guy was actually not breathing, I sensed that it was an emergency, so I scanned the Internet and found out his name, number, where he lived (not exact address though) and pics. I posted them on the Misc. and thought someone would use the information. Half an hour later, to make things convenient, I posted the Miami police’s details on the CJ thread hoping someone would call them, nobody did but people insisted he was faking it, Then I sent an email to Miami police about the situation but the email bounced, after this I thought I would have to do something about it since nobody else was calling the cops or taking it seriously, and stole my dad’s cellphone, called up the Miami cops and spoke to 4 people about it, they kept giving the phone to each other, and nobody understood the emergency of the situation when I told them that I was calling from a different country and the dude was dying. All those people did was give me the number of the Broward County’s sheriff, my dad’s cell ran out of International calling credit, I posted Broward County Sheriff’s number on the Misc. I also sent them an email about the situation, then I went back and stole my mom’s cell, I then called Broward’s Sheriff’s office, the people there told me that three people had already called and they were on it. (The first guy to call them was jjlee138). I then explained the situation to them again and hoped for the best. The cops came after 15 minutes of my call and blocked the webcam. Thats it. Bulker blog.bodybuilding.com/Dude_Rocker/2008/11/21/the-night-cj-left-us/
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Pinkberry
Artemis
I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw was beautiful
Posts: 312
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Post by Pinkberry on Nov 26, 2008 14:50:16 GMT -11
The kids family want to blame the boards for not saving their sons life.. In this I disagree. I do think that those sick people on the board SHOULD have done SOMETHING sooner, however the ultimate blame lies with Abraham. He decided to commit suicide. He decided to post in on the web. And he decided not to get help. If anything his FAMILY should have noticed something, since they claim he was depressed and bipolar. And seriously, the kid was laying there for 12 hrs. If his parents were sooo involved in his life, they wouldnt of bothered to open the bedroom door ONCE in that period??? Seriously, when I go home I cant go 2 hrs without my mom or dad or brother walking in. So really, I understand why the parents are upset. They lost their son to suicide while people watched it happen. However, they also knew their son had a problem with depressed/suicide attempts in the past. So if ANYONE is going to take the blame for anything that Abraham did then it should be split between the parents, who chose to do nothing about their kids depression, and the people who posted on the board. Ultimately though, the blame lies with Abraham himself.
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 26, 2008 16:38:26 GMT -11
The kids family want to blame the boards for not saving their sons life.. They blamed people for watching for hours and even egging him on, rather than calling the police, and it is a rational thing for them to be upset about. It is a fact, that had people made the efforts to call the police the moment two of them started to talk about it, which was at 3:30 am, his chances of survival would have been relatively good. Knowing this fact, it would be odd if parents would not be upset with knowing that people were there doing nothing at that crucial moment. Wouldn't you want some one who is gawking at your loved one in danger to intervene rather than gawk at it, if you are not humanely present at the spot it is happening at? Maybe you are God forbid asleep at 3:30 am? Would it not anger you if your loved one died, no one making you aware of it, outside of staring at your loved one like a circus display? Well that's why he was on all the medication he was on. Rational people can be thought of as having the ability to make rational decisions. But we are talking about some one who had a mental illness and therefore as some one like this, the concept of them making life decisions and what not, isn't logically applicable. They did. This is why when he did this before he was baker acted into a psych ward. Obviously, he had been seeing psychiatrists for quite some time for this. But to assume that a family member can be with some one 24/7 is ridiculous. Thanks to the closure of so many psych wards and the way of which insurance companies run the medical field, this kind of thing is much easier said than done. First of all I would be very surprised if his parents would go into and out of his room at the wee hours of the morning. Second of all, his family works and leaves early. He was still alive at the time they would leave for work. They may very well have peaked in and saw him sleeping there. Unless they are psychics they have no way of knowing that he, in fact, took a toxic cocktail before he went to bed and scumbags on that site sure as crap didn't bother to do anything to make them aware of that. And if they see you sound asleep at 6:30 am in bed, do they go over and bother you and wake you up? If everyone in your family has to go to work, does anyone stay home just because you are still in bed sleeping very early in the morning? This is where you are wrong. They most certainly tried and tried hard to help their son. He had been to many psychiatrists and they even had him put away for suicidal tendencies earlier. They did everything in their power, that the law would allow them to do, to try to take care of this problem. Maybe we can look at the fact that people who need to be in mental hospitals are often pushed out and onto the street because some of the stupid laws we have. Once again yes if we are talking about a "rational" thinker who had no mental illnesses, then we could say Yeah that stupid hiney, deciding to kill himself. But this isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about some one that was mentally incompetent and really should have been in a mental hospital long term. But thanks to the insurance companies running the show, you can't even make sure your own kids get much needed attention for their psychological illnesses. And this doesn't in any way excuse anyone who sat there gawking at this, while doing nothing to help. They made the rational decision to click on his webcam and in doing so, involved themselves. So whether he was rational or not, they were.
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nowhammies
Artemis
Big bucks, No Whammies, STOP!
Posts: 392
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Post by nowhammies on Nov 26, 2008 18:07:04 GMT -11
Mental illness is tough. For some people, no matter what help they seek, no matter what meds they take, they just can't get the chemistry under control. Sometimes, the help is worse than the condition. I find the utter lack of compassion in the response of the people watching really, really sad.
And truly, his actions were a cry for help. Taking medication as a form of suicide is usually an invitation for someone to stop him. Talking about suicide over and over is an invitation for someone to say, "I care whether you are here or not. How can I help?"
Typically the person who truly wants to die doesn't talk about it. They don't do something that will risk discovery like pills. They do it quietly, they do it quickly. Before anyone hears about suicide from them, they are dead.
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Nov 26, 2008 18:15:43 GMT -11
Mental illness is tough. For some people, no matter what help they seek, no matter what meds they take, they just can't get the chemistry under control. Sometimes, the help is worse than the condition. I find the utter lack of humanity in the response of the people watching really, really sad. That's the thing about the various mental illnesses. It is hard for people who do not suffering any of them, or having learned a great deal about them to fathom much of the issues entailed. In his case, he was a diagnosed bipolar and that is quite possibly one of the most difficult and frustrating mental illnesses out there. Then when you have one that is suicidal, they are BEYOND the scope of rational thinking and really sincerely DO need those more rational minded to intervene on their behalf. Something Abraham's dad said really struck me. He mentioned that Abraham had seemed to have been doing well these past couple of weeks. Back when I took psychology, one of the things that I learned about bipolar disorder is that at the times that they are most likely in danger of being suicidal is when they are spiraling down to rock bottom depression OR coming out of it. So typically, it's when they show themselves to be coming out of it, is a time you really have to carefully watch.
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