CougarBob
Hermes
Where is Everybody???
Posts: 997
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Post by CougarBob on Dec 2, 2008 6:19:56 GMT -11
Was the worker actually stepped on or was it a case where he/she was smashed against a wall or barrier? I've read about and seen video where people were killed or seriously injured when shoved up against something, usually at European soccer matches. Was it a case where the surging crowd pushed people across the victim? I haven't seen any video on this case.
Oh, I never said that only Walmart was to blame, but they should not get off scott free with the excuse that they couldn't control the crowd. If that was the case, they should not be open for business. In this case, people pushed at the door windows and smashed them in (which BTW is the first illegal act as that is now breaking and entering). Then they ran through, knocking this man down onto the ground and proceeded to run over him. So he wasn't pushed or shoved up against a wall. He was literally knocked down onto the floor and trampled on by this stampede. Others were knocked down the same way but did manage to live with injury. In fact, the police have discuss the possibility of criminally charging some of these people, especially those that smashed through the glass doors.
Walmart definitely deserves to face some liability here. Maybe they should stop having sales since it seems even the cops that were there couldn't control that crowd either, and the people obviously believe that they can break the laws without consequence because it will all rest on the establishment rather than personal responsibility. But it is easy for anyone to point a finger and say there should have been all kinds of security after the fact, blah blah blah but that doesn't prove it that it would have prevented anything. If people behave like wild buffalo over sales this can happen in any and every store out there. How many times have you gone into a crowded grocery store due to sales? How many security guards do you notice on hand? How about the malls around Christmas time? Do you think that the security they have on hand is equipped to handle the crowd should the crowd suddenly go wild and turn ugly? If you had a yard sale that was hopping with 50 people in your yard, should you be sued for not having security because they all notice a bike near your front door and decide to stampede towards it like a group of bulls? The point is, there are sales all over the place and most often stores have tons of people that they would never be able to handle should the crowd suddenly go wild.
But the animals that illegally busted down the glass doors and then caused the death, what they did was criminal with the result of homicide. They should, in my opinion, get punished according, to criminal activity resulting in death. I think that having sales is okay. But when they put such a short time limit on the sale and advertise that it is only for X hours, so you'd better hurry, don't get left out, blah blah, it creates a sense of almost panic in some people. Have a sale, but make for a weekend and quit the urgency bit.
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CougarBob
Hermes
Where is Everybody???
Posts: 997
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Post by CougarBob on Dec 2, 2008 6:31:10 GMT -11
One thing I would like to add about a stampede of that sort. If you happen to be in the middle of it, you cannot stop. You either go forward yourself, or you will be tripped, crushed, and added to the casualty list.
I bet those who were not in the stampede were fortunate enough to be separate from the original rush. I guarantee you none of them had the ability to stop it.
I say prosecute the ones who broke the window. They are the ring leaders. Why allow the stores to hold sales of this type to begin with? If a business creates an atmosphere where this kind of thing can happen, they should be stopped. They should be fined so heavily that next time they will hire on extra security or make the sale last over a longer period of time or change the way people enter and exit the store. Prosecuting people who did that actual damage is fine, but it's still after the fact. The injuries and damage have already been done.
Something has to be done to prevent this kind of thing. I say fine the damn stores so much that it is cheaper for them to hire on the extra security and have them outside the store making people line up and enter in an orderly manner. There are ways to keep crowds under control (IE. pepper spray, bullhorns, etc.).
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Dec 2, 2008 6:54:42 GMT -11
Why allow the stores to hold sales of this type to begin with? Because it's a free country where stores having sales is not an outlawed practice. Should we lose yet another liberty because some animals at one store couldn't behave themselves? The business did not create this kind of atmosphere, it was the people that created it themselves by their behavior. All the business did was offer excellent sales. It's not their fault that a heard of animals showed up at their front door. Stores all over the country had excellent sales and in most places people behaved in a civilized fashion. [/size][/font] [/quote]Fined for what? Throwing a sale? What do you think 200 security guards would have been able to do against 2,000 animals? These *humans* didn't even respect the COPS that were there, what makes you think they would have respected many fake cops for hire? These people busted through the glass, what makes you think they would have giving a rats behind about lines or anything for that matter? They didn't even give a damn that a guy was dying because of them on the floor. Unless it is unlawful for stores to have big sales, there is no basis for a fine. And I do not wish or hope our country takes any more liberty away for the sake of people refusing to be personally responsible for their actions. Enough with the government babying us, it's about time we assume responsibility for the things we do albeit right or wrong. Does the mere concept of humans breaking and entering and then stamping all over a man without a care about it at all concern you? It concerns me greatly because that act in itself does speak volumes about humanity. I am trying to ponder and reflect about the underlying problem of people not caring that they did this, or wanting to continue to shop in the middle of a crime scene. How did we get to this point in society? Could it be because people have been reared up to assume no responsibility for what they do, and point fingers? Have we become so desensitized that this man's death affected these animals as if they broke a nail? What is going on here? However, Walmart should be penalized for their failure to call in law officers sooner than they did. Maybe if they had, the police would have been able to call in the national guard and ward off this wild swarm. Maybe they should have called off the black friday all together when they first got nervous of this crowd? I believe that they definitely owe the families of the deceased man and the others injured in this. Meanwhile, I hope that the authorities are able to get positive IDs on some of these creatures that busted the glass open and causing the stampede death and that they are prosecuted to the fullest extent. Maybe if people see that they do not get away with this sot of thing and get to point their fingers elsewhere and assume responsibility, they might be more mindful of their actions in future events.
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Post by xXSpookyXx on Dec 2, 2008 6:57:35 GMT -11
I think that having sales is okay. But when they put such a short time limit on the sale and advertise that it is only for X hours, so you'd better hurry, don't get left out, blah blah, it creates a sense of almost panic in some people. Have a sale, but make for a weekend and quit the urgency bit. [/size][/font][/quote]I agree the X amount of time does create a sense of panic. I will hope that Walmart learns something from this and adjusts their doing. Unfortunately, as I said above it is not illegal to have sales between certain times. Another thought I had is if they do things where people show up and grab tickets. Whatever number the ticket holder has, is what number they may enter the store. This is what they often do for concerts when selling concert tickets.
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CougarBob
Hermes
Where is Everybody???
Posts: 997
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Post by CougarBob on Dec 2, 2008 7:46:26 GMT -11
I think that having sales is okay. But when they put such a short time limit on the sale and advertise that it is only for X hours, so you'd better hurry, don't get left out, blah blah, it creates a sense of almost panic in some people. Have a sale, but make for a weekend and quit the urgency bit. I agree the X amount of time does create a sense of panic. I will hope that Walmart learns something from this and adjusts their doing. Unfortunately, as I said above it is not illegal to have sales between certain times. Another thought I had is if they do things where people show up and grab tickets. Whatever number the ticket holder has, is what number they may enter the store. This is what they often do for concerts when selling concert tickets. Good idea. Concerts and sporting events handle much larger crowds all the time with crowds that all want to get into an event in a short amount of time. Most of the time, they are able to do this quickly and safely. There is no reason that the largest retail business in the country can't do the same thing.
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Pinkberry
Artemis
I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw was beautiful
Posts: 312
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Post by Pinkberry on Dec 2, 2008 17:34:34 GMT -11
Why allow the stores to hold sales of this type to begin with? Because it's a free country where stores having sales is not an outlawed practice. Should we lose yet another liberty because some animals at one store couldn't behave themselves? The business did not create this kind of atmosphere, it was the people that created it themselves by their behavior. All the business did was offer excellent sales. It's not their fault that a heard of animals showed up at their front door. Stores all over the country had excellent sales and in most places people behaved in a civilized fashion. [/size][/font] [/quote]Fined for what? Throwing a sale? What do you think 200 security guards would have been able to do against 2,000 animals? These *humans* didn't even respect the COPS that were there, what makes you think they would have respected many fake cops for hire? These people busted through the glass, what makes you think they would have giving a rats behind about lines or anything for that matter? They didn't even give a damn that a guy was dying because of them on the floor. Unless it is unlawful for stores to have big sales, there is no basis for a fine. And I do not wish or hope our country takes any more liberty away for the sake of people refusing to be personally responsible for their actions. Enough with the government babying us, it's about time we assume responsibility for the things we do albeit right or wrong. Does the mere concept of humans breaking and entering and then stamping all over a man without a care about it at all concern you? It concerns me greatly because that act in itself does speak volumes about humanity. I am trying to ponder and reflect about the underlying problem of people not caring that they did this, or wanting to continue to shop in the middle of a crime scene. How did we get to this point in society? Could it be because people have been reared up to assume no responsibility for what they do, and point fingers? Have we become so desensitized that this man's death affected these animals as if they broke a nail? What is going on here? However, Walmart should be penalized for their failure to call in law officers sooner than they did. Maybe if they had, the police would have been able to call in the national guard and ward off this wild swarm. Maybe they should have called off the black friday all together when they first got nervous of this crowd? I believe that they definitely owe the families of the deceased man and the others injured in this. Meanwhile, I hope that the authorities are able to get positive IDs on some of these creatures that busted the glass open and causing the stampede death and that they are prosecuted to the fullest extent. Maybe if people see that they do not get away with this sot of thing and get to point their fingers elsewhere and assume responsibility, they might be more mindful of their actions in future events. [/quote] I agree. Why should we lose more civil liberties or why should big companies lose their rights to hold sales just because some idiotic cheap barbarian losers tramped a guy to death. If anything they should be punished, but dont punish all 250 million Americans who did NOT crush someone on black friday.
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